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Post by Talus on Jun 30, 2012 5:28:38 GMT -5
The Rules. I have them.
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GIrene
Veteran Sergeant
Brother-Captain Kromgol
Posts: 207
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Post by GIrene on Jun 30, 2012 10:21:28 GMT -5
Oh you too?
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Post by Gannon on Jul 1, 2012 21:29:33 GMT -5
Study study, I'm sure there will be plenty of questions from all of us. Looks like the 7th will be the first day of 6th (lol).
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GIrene
Veteran Sergeant
Brother-Captain Kromgol
Posts: 207
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Post by GIrene on Jul 1, 2012 23:13:17 GMT -5
In short: (Borrowed from another site but confirmed myself)
Flyers Flyers offer every army access to something fast and mobile that can lay down a horrendous amount of firepower. While they are not typically very sturdy vehicles with usually weak armor and low HP count, they are hard to hit.
No assaulting to turn a unit disembarks I think this is the single largest change to the underlying mechanics of Warhammer 40k. Many units in the past relied on rolling around in their transports and charging straight out of a vehicle. To clarify, this rule is exactly what is sounds like. If you disembarked from a vehicle in your movement phase, you can't charge in the assault phase. This is regardless of how far the vehicle moved or whether it moved at all. Huge change, and one that makes me rethink all of my current armies.
AP3 Power Weapons Gone are the ages where a lowly grunt could pay 10-15 points for a weapon that gave them the ability to shred the galaxies toughest armors. Since the most common power weapons out there are all AP3, players will have to rebalance their lists to deal with terminators and other 2+ armor units. Large implications both for list-building as well as tabletop play.
Snap Shots Heavy weapons are making a comeback for everyone as now they can shoot at BS1 when moving. This also plays a role with vehicles as well and will allow all vehicles to lay down a pretty impressive hail of firepower. While BS1 means only a 12.6% chance of hitting, that is far better than the 0% of previous editions.
Wound Allocation Finally a 40k game where wound allocation can't be horribly abused. Essentially it works like follows. You allocate wounds to the closest model, until that model is dead, and then move on to the next. Repeat as needed. No tricks with allocating one wound to each model before allocating additional wounds, no statements about different wargear. This does mean that important models better stick to the back of the unit, but, in my opinion, makes the game much richer as now people have to consider where they are placing models WITHIN a unit and not just the units footprint on the board.
Hull Points I really love hull points. One of my chief concerns since I started playing Warhammer 40k, was the reliance on a random chart to determine whether a vehicle was destroyed. How many times have you played a game where you repeatedly glance that vindicator only to stun/shake them turn after turn? While it is still possible to do that in 6th edition, vehicles now have hull points. Glancing or penetrating will reduce the hull points by one while penetrating will allow the shooter to roll on the usual vehicle damage chart. This makes for a much more reliable way to destroy vehicles. Since vehicles have no problems destroying anti-vehicle infantry (usually) I think this change is for the best.
Challenges Despite my enjoyment of tournament play, I do love the narrative elements that GW has added to the new edition of Warhammer 40k. Nothing better than two heroes squaring off against one another and I love the glorious intervention rule as well that lets other characters take over challenges. You can either throw a sergeant in to save a weak HQ or vice versa.
Scoring Restrictions Vehicles can't contest, units must be outside transports to score or contest. All of these rules mean that units can't bunker down in their vehicles. They actually have to *gasp* go outside and fight. All awesome additions in my opinion. I hated when people would drive their land raiders on top of an objective and just park there with a full squad of assault termies, Grey Hunters, or whatever.
25% Regroup For non-space marine armies this one is huge. Nothing was worse than having a giant squad of twenty guardians lose 10 models and then flee off the table. Being able to regroup all the way down to 25% really helps out the Xenos races quite a bit.
Allies The ability to bring in some allies in games will be amazing. Currently all books out there have weaknesses and allies will allow both fluff players and tourney places some flexibility to their lists. I know I'm looking forward to working on my Eldar/Dark Eldar lists. I simply need to figure out which way I want to address this.
Other things: Psykers got a big boon. In fact most Nid players say while most of their Army is nerf'd (Monstrous Creatures no longer roll 2d6 to Pen armor) their Zoans have become awesome when combined up with a Nid gunline.
Various weapons changes. Salvo weapons have now been added. These have a #/# profile for shooting. The first is their shooting if they move. The 2nd is their shooting if they stay stationary. Power weapons are actually in a few categories now. Some get different qualities and ratings.
Grenades. You can have one model throw a grenade at 8" range when the unit shoots. This is all Grenades (frag, krak, plasma) with varied stats.
Overwatch is back and if I remember right, allows you to shoot at an enemy charging you in the assault phase using the snap shot rules (BS1).
Charges are now 2d6".
Gets Hot! means a vehicle can glance itself if it rolls a 1, and then further rolls a 1-3.
Expanded Allies: A good explanation from /tg/ Pick a dex for your army. That's now the parent or "Primary" dex. Select an HQ and 2x Troop Units. That's now your primary "detachment". As you grow your army, you can ally another dex and choose Units from that, starting with a second HQ+2TR "detachment". Continue to make the army as large as you want now, by using further Units from both dexes. Once you reach 2000pts, you can "ally" another Primary detachment - i.e. HQ+2TR, etc. Once you've got all that, you're permitted to Ally a second detachment from the Secondary (allies) dex.
There are varying levels of Allies as well The highest allows you to integrate normally. IC's can join each other's units. They count as friendlies for psychic powers, but you can't cross one army's guys into the other army's transports.
The 2nd allows almsot normal integration but IC's can't cross over to join other Army's units, don't get counted as friendlies for psychic powers and some special traits in one Army will not be applicable to the other.
The 3rd is pretty much the forces are vary untrusting of each other. They work as the 2nd level but also have a special rule that if you get within a certain distance you have to roll a d6 and avoid a 1. If you roll 1 the unit cannot do anything as it is too busy "watching the allies for treachery."
There is a last, no allies at all. Some Armies aren't allowed to take bits from others. Nids are blocked out from everyone.
Some of the things I've seen/been able to confirm against the rules.
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GIrene
Veteran Sergeant
Brother-Captain Kromgol
Posts: 207
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Post by GIrene on Jul 2, 2012 10:14:48 GMT -5
One of my buddies from Planes and Mercs did a funny opinion piece on his "Winners and Losers" of 6th:
Eldar Jetbikes are ridiculous now. 36 turboboost with jink, relentless, and hammer or wrath is decent as is. But put them with a seer council and well...
Overall, I'm actually impressed with the book. They got a lot of things right (imo) and fixed a lot of the abuse of 5th while balancing out vehicles/infantry/other stuff. Yes, allies are open for abuse and yes, some pieces of terrain will be taken everytime (Aegis defense line), but even for tournament players it actually is a nice sort of thing. You will probably see infinite iterations of IG/SM, IG/Orks, IG/GK, etc. and everyone will be taking Aegis Defense Lines up the %$#. But at the same time, allies and fortifications provides a lot of the older armies with ways of building on their strengths or mitigating weaknesses. And for those who just want pick-up games, you can always just ignore the allies and fortification rules.
Overall, I like it. Sure, I may be biased since my Necrons are the hottest thing since sliced bread, but even my CSM got major buffs. Thousand Sons are actually worth taking now for the first time in three editions. Plague Marines can stop anything short of mass Powerfists. Berserkers can rip an tear like no other. Noise marines still blow (this is what you get for ruing the 3.5E codex for the rest of us). Defilers have 4 hull points and now ignore up to half of the damage table.
Point is this. I like the new rules. I highly recommend you guys get out and either get the book, or play some games with someone who has the book. It's fun, streamlined, and very clear about most rules. So, now for the overall winners and losers:
WINRARS: 1) Necrons: Kiss your biological $%#es goodbye, Skynet just kicked in yo. Tesla weapons, Nightscythes, and Night Fighting all day erry day means that the Robots are going to rule over all those GK, SM, and IG players I hate so very much. Good luck trying to hit my guys with 24 inch movement + transport abilities with a handy dandy 3+ cover save against anything that can hit me. Oh, and they have 3 structure points. 2) IG: Yeah, your walls of chimeras and autocannons are less useful (sorry Mio). On the plus side, blast weapons are now full strength vs vehicles and hydras will mow the crap out of any fliers (save Night Scythes. See above.). Also, they gain the most out of allies more than any other army except possibly Orks. 3) Dark Eldar: Prepare yon booties, the kinky xenos are coming in dry. Night fields are a straight buff. All Dark Eldar vehicles have jink saves. And nearly all their weapons are even deadlier. Throw in some Eldar Farseer allies, and you can take on pretty much anybody. They are a definite hard counter to Necrons and other top tier armies and after all the crap they've been through until recently, I'm glad they have a chance to shine. 4) Blood Angels: Changes to Jump Packs, FnP, Rage, and 1st turn wipeouts. If you see Death Company, pray to god you can nuke them off the board or can kite them. Otherwise, you are in for a world of hurt.
LOOOOOOOOOOOSERS: 1) Tyranids: My buddy was very excited, and then promptly raged. While the rules for Vector Strike and flying MC's in general are good, the fact that he no longer gets +2d6 arpen on all MC's really rustled his jimmies. Still, new psychic powers (in my opinion) more than make up for it. Until I read that they get no allies. They don't even have access to a 2nd FOC at all points levels to make up for it. Boneswords, Rage, and Venom Cannons got a buff, but the fact remains that the Tyranid Codex suffers from cramped slots, poor anti-tank in general, and the lack of Eternal Warrior on synapse creatures. They are slightly more powerful, but expect them to still get shafted across the board until GW gets their heads out of their &^$es. On the plus side, the ability to field an entire army of psykers is nice. On the minus side, said psykers fold easily to missiles :/ 2) Grey Knights: Your Nemesis Force Wepons are only AP3 now and with new psychic powers/defenses and the new damage charts, they're not as potent in CC or at range. Still stupidly powerful, but slightly less so. 3) Space Wolves: Your Las/Plas Razorbacks can go eat a part of the male anatomy. Similarly, the new transport rules and everything else means that 99% of the Space Yiff's who bought the army solely for the OP factor are crying delicious tears. I am satisfied. To those who actually bought the army beforehand and play smart instead of netlisting, you guys will have to cope with some of the new tricks. Full mech isn't really an option, so 3x5 Long Fangs w/ ML in a Razorback isn't as powerful and puts them in a risky position.
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Post by Gannon on Jul 2, 2012 19:49:54 GMT -5
Flyers-Interesting, I did hear a bit about the Dakka Jets that were recently released and an 18 shot gun on Waaagh turn?
No assaulting to turn a unit disembarks-This screws Orks, essentially there is no reason to take an open topped vehicle any longer.
AP3 Power Weapons-I think we'll see a lot more use of Terminators, Mega-Nobs, and Oblits now. Not that Oblits aren't used anyways seeing as they're the best thing in that codex.
Snap Shots-Solid rule, I like this one.
Wound Allocation-How does wound allocation work for blast weapons? If we have to roll against each model separately it will slow this game down.
Hull Points-Meh, now I have to have damage boxes for my vehicles?
Challenges-Sounds, okay, but a little too Fantasy Battle for me.
Scoring Restrictions-Good rule, should have been this way from the beginning.
25% Regroup-FINALLY! Good thing they fixed this, 50% never made any sense.
Allies-Allies boke the game for Fantasy, I don't know why they'd do it for 40K. Bad call IMO.
Other things:-No 2d6 Pen for monstorous creatures? This is garbage.
Various weapons changes.-Seems like salvo numbers are going to bog the game down with time consuming rules checks initially. We'll see how this goes.
Grenades.-Chuck a 'nade? Sounds good to me.
Overwatch-Okay as long as I don't have to belay shoooting in the turn prior.
Charges are now 2d6".-Garbage
Gets Hot!-For Vehicles? Really? Garbage.
Winners-Necrons are going to be the new Eldar, until the new Eldar come out.
Losers-Sounds like they specificially wrote rules to nerf SW's and GK's. Why?
---Overall this is my opinon. I'll have to read the rules before I say anything else. The game has changed of course, I'm just hoping they didn't design the rulebook around current codices. It should be the other way around.
One more thing, Tyranids always, always, always get the short end of the stick. We'll see how they fare in the 6th edition version of their codex.
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GIrene
Veteran Sergeant
Brother-Captain Kromgol
Posts: 207
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Post by GIrene on Jul 3, 2012 2:58:05 GMT -5
Yeah most of that covers my thoughts but most experienced but "unattached" players seem to think this blends 2nd/4th/5th and a dash of new that from what I'm hearing from guys that played it, makes things rough, but with some army adjustments you'll be fine. (which many point out is a possible cash grab by GW since everyone will go buy more models to readjust their armies and a lot of Mech IG players are pretty much dropping a lot of their armor and replacing it with costly infantry).
Guys have been floating around on /tg/ talking about how to make Nids worthwhile but you sorta have to do the cheese to make it work. Psykers really do come into their own now. There is a general psyker powers list in the rulebook that you can choose your psyker power from, they are pretty useful for the most part.
On the Hull Points: Most normal vehicles carry 2-3. Big uns like the Russ/Land Raider/Defiler, etc are 4.
Also speaking of psykers, I haven't totally finished skimming the rules but I mean, Chagear must be a psyker of some sort because gunline BA seems like it will work even better from what I've read/heard about all these changes.
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Post by Chagear on Jul 3, 2012 4:05:43 GMT -5
I think gun line BA has always worked, I just wanted a change for a bit. Will have to play with the new rules, but my observation so far is that a balanced list will take you places a lop-sided list will not. -This change makes me giddy as it invites more tactics and less list cheese.-
I will try my best to get some 40k work done, but I just got in a fresh batch of devotes for Menoth.
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Post by Gannon on Jul 4, 2012 19:53:53 GMT -5
From what I've read, Gunline won't be as good due to random night fight rules in EVERY game. Some you'll be playing up to 3 turns in Nightfight. We'll see how it goes, but I'm probably going to keep playing Warmachine and Hordes for the forseeable future.
I did read one one other forum a good solution to the random charge rule. You can either choose to charge a set 6" range, or go for broke and roll a random 2d6. This seems like a good solution to me for this rule. Any thoughts?
Also a better solution to the psyker and warlord rules may be to just allow players to choose their powers. This would allow a tactics development within the army you want to play, instead of random rolls. I never liked randomizing, it just seems to make the games less interesting.
Remember guys the rulebook is just a guideline to play the game, we can change them to suit our needs. These are just two of the suggestions I have so far.
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Post by High Marshal Timmah on Jul 5, 2012 13:55:19 GMT -5
I've already played 6 games... each one was extremely visual and cinematic. We are playing a Roleplaying Campaign using my new Necron army, Necrons, Nids and Tau against Imperium and Eldar.
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Post by Gannon on Jul 5, 2012 20:24:26 GMT -5
Tim playing bad guys? I never thought I'd see the day. On another note, after talking with Tim for a bit this morning (gotta love xbox live chat) my initial foreboding feeling about 6th have been quelled. I'll have to run a few games, and we'll see if we will need to fix anything within our group (home grown rules).
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Andrew
=I= Storm Trooper
The Tyrant o' Hives
Posts: 416
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Post by Andrew on Jul 7, 2012 21:26:26 GMT -5
Just thought I would stick my head in for my opinion Ive only played one game so far. My nerfs (I mean nids) against mech guard. We kind of struggled through the game, trying to get used to the new rules. Overall im fairly happy about it. Random charge - Mixed feelings. Its nice to be able to charge in 12" with nids (and DE). But to get so close, then roll snake eyes can suck. Fleet helps to mitigate this though. Also, the new charge is 7" since the odds on 2D6 are strong for a 7. Hull points - YES. No more stupid rhinos taking up space on the board. Power Weapons - Fail. Power weapons got the big nerf unfortunately. Incubi... Snap shots - Big beef up for guard. Getting to shoot your las cannons every turn regardless of movement! On a 6... but still. Individual movement - So... wolfs get to move some of their gun squads and leave some still to keep shooting heavy weapons. Stupid dogs... 25% regroup - Win. Has been needed for a long time. Wound allocation - Mixed. Seems to get confusing once you get multi wound models mixed in with single wound models. But I like it so far. Makes you think about sticking that beefy character out in front for the charge (overwatch!) Overwatch - Screw you space marines. Flyers - Win. The ork flyer is epic. Allies - This is the big one. The combinations that people will come up with on these with be epic. This will change the game in my opinion. BUT NO ALLIES FOR MY BUGS?!? NERD RAGEEEEEEEEE
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Post by Gannon on Jul 9, 2012 0:48:08 GMT -5
Epic 400th post brother, I just wanted to spam that one out there.
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